The Braves magic number is 2. Basically we just cant get swept by the Phillies. I dont see SD sweeping the Giants especially with the way their offense has performed over the last few weeks. I am still not sold on the way that we have been playing since scoring 3 runs feels like winning the lottery most nights, but at the same time I have to give some credit where credit is due and the Braves do deserve some for sweeping the Marlins. It would have been very easy to just win 2/3 since that is the MO of the Braves over the last few years. We knew we had to sweep and we did.
I have to critisize Bobby Cox some here. Why the hell was McCann not in the lineup on Wednesday? I dont care that its a night then day game scenario. The game was at 4:30 and we had an off day the next day! Of course i write something about this on facebook and everyone informs me at David Ross hit 3 doubles. Big freaking deal. That doesnt mean anything. You cannot be results based. Heres a great example. I played basketball in High School and our coach had this drill we ran where we got points based on how good the shot was regardless of whether it went in or not. A layup was 9, open jumper 7, contested 5 and a terrible shot was a 1. Lets say you take a terrible shot and it goes in. Does it make it ok that it was a terrible shot just bc it went in? Hell no! Its still a terrible shot and only worth 1 point! Same scenario here. Just bc Ross hit 3 doubles doesnt mean not playing McCann was the right move. It wasnt. You cant honestly look a Braves fan in the face and say that starting Ross over McCann gave us the best chance to win. You would be laughed at. This is the kind of crap that no one says anything about. It doesnt seem like a big deal bc we won but it is. How many times this year and in years past has Bobby sat McCann every day game after a night game? Almost every single time. Basically McCann is making Chipper Jones money bc he only plays in 3/4 of the games. 126 out of 159 games McCann has started and to my knowledge has not been hurt all year. I get it. Catching can be grueling. The problem is the Braves cant afford to not have his bat in the lineup on a daily basis. Another thing I want to ask is give me reasons why Bobby Cox is a great manager? Dont mention stuff he did as a GM bc I have heard that argument before and that doesnt count towards anything he has done as a manager. I want to know why everyone considers him this great manager? Here is your chance.
Friday, October 1, 2010
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Maybe that is why your high school basketball team sucked.
HA good one. We were actually pretty good I thought.
For the record, anonymous comments chap my ass.
Pat...i hear that...we should run them some luke warm bath water and who em whats up...hows everything going?
Bobby Cox vs. other managers
http://www.talkingchop.com/2010/9/30/1723490/braves-stats-of-the-day-the-greatness-of-bobby-cox
murph- Love the insight. While this list is impressive the only 2 names on this list that hold any weight in comparison are LaRussa and Torre. Only problem is they BOTH have at least 2 World Series Championships and IMO LaRussa's is more impressive since he didnt have all the money the yanks had. Im not knocking Bobby Cox's record. It clearly speaks for itself. However, again he had 3 HOF pitchers IN THEIR PRIME on 1 team for years. Thats not to mention that he had an owner in Ted Turner who wanted to win. Is this his fault? Of course not. Heres my point. You cannot congratulate him on all these wins then give him a pass in the playoffs. He is 1-5 in the World Series. 1-5!! How many times did the Braves have the best record in the NL or in baseball for that matter and flounder in the playoffs. Anyone who says "its not his fault the players dont make plays in the playoffs" must agree that the manager doesnt really do anything. correct? So if they believe that then you have to agree that he doesnt do anything in the regular season. Hence the good record doesnt mean anything. Everyone is so quick to talk about how great he is but all he needed was 1 more championship. I would give back all the years in a row winning the East for 1 more world series. 1 can be considered a fluke but 2 cannot be questioned. The freaking Marlins have 2 world series in the last 13 years. How many times have they been in the playoffs? Maybe 4?
maybe i should rephrase what i say...Bobby Cox is the most overrated post season manager of all time...Hes a good regular season manager even though he really doesnt do anything
I couldn'tagree with your statement more. Liza Minnelli could have managed the braves to fourteen straight division championships with those teams. Some people say that we should have been content to win the division all those years with all those trips to the playoffs, which would be understandable coming from a pirates or royals fan. But not a braves fan. Teams would kill to have just one of the Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine trio for one year. We had all three for the better portion of a decade. It could very well be seen as a waste. And as a fellow Atlantan I know how much it still is sickening that we only won one world championship through all those years. I think that since our illustrious manager owns the career "I'm going to get ejected right now for no reason other than that I am known as a players manager" record it would be interesting to find the win-loss totals for the braves in games that bobby cox was ejected (i.e. didnt manage). I am thinking its going to be the same if not better (although some might attribute that to the fact that he was pumping the team up or some bs like that). I am with you all the way on this one. He is good, but he could have been great, even legendary.
And to bring up a point again which you have brought up before and still amazes me, Joe Torre was fired from the yankees. Still amazing after all he did. Bobby would have been long gone after the first two trips to the world series without winning.
1) Ted Turner never had any success with his Braves UNTIL Bobby Cox entered the picture
2) While the Braves had their 3 Hall of Fame starters, Teams that won multiple World Series always had Hall of Fame Relief pitchers. LaRussa and Torre had the top relievers of their era. LaRussa had Eckersley and Torre had Rivera.
The A's dynasty of the early 70's had Rollie Fingers. The Yankees dynasty teams of the late 70's had Rich Gossage.
Teams that won multiple World Series always had tremendous relievers---who did Cox have...Wohlers?? Stanton????? Their relievers were so bad, they even converted Smoltz, but all Smoltz did was whine and cry until they moved him back to a starter because the selfish SOB only cared about getting more wins so that he could make the Hall of Fame. If you are going to shout that Cox was "gifted" with 3 HOF starters, you must also consider his lack of capable relievers.
3) Coaches go on hunches. Remember your soph year in your first varsity game, with the game tied with 30 seconds left, I put you in for the last play over some more skilled and experienced players. I had a hunch it would work....as you know, it didnt work, but I don't recall you coming to me and complaining that it was stupid to put in the game in that situation.
Coach- thank you for the comments. I always enjoy reading them .I have to say that I thought you would be anti Bobby Cox. Who did the Marlins have as their closers the 2 world series they won? Robb Nenn and Braden Looper. Their rosters would get crushed next to any Braves roster that you put out there for the years they have made the World Series. Why are the marlins able to get the job done? You said earlier that the players determine what happens in the playoffs. So with that being said do you agree that the manager has nothing to do with the playoff outcomes? And if you do then you must agree that he has nothing to do with the regular season? So in essence, Bobby Cox is just a blob on the bench who gets thrown out every once in a while and deserves no credit for anything. Thats my point. All he did was oversee one of the best baseball franchises for over 2 decades and gets all this credit like he is the reason they were good.
Basketball is completely different than baseball. For instance, you could make the deicision to put Joey Flynn on the other teams best player and he could score 40 points on you. Point being that strategy comes into play much more than Baseball. The proper play would prob to have putt BJ on that guy as jab step cant hang.
I do remember the game you are referring to and the kid hit the most outrageous falling out of bounds 3 pointer at the buzzer. I played all of 20 seconds and it was like a kick to the gut. That team that year had what? 9 or 10 buzzer beater losses? Thats a tough one.
I have added your teams page to my facebook and will be checking in. GL i think practices start soon dont they?
Yes, a good manager shows his value much more in the regular season than the playoffs.
A good manager helps set an everyday attitude and approach for a team that allows them to maximize their talent. He gets the players to approach their job professionally. Over a long season, he gets them to play with passion, to play unselfishly and to focus everyday, even through the doldrums of 162 games. You might say, "Oh, big deal" but it is a big deal because teams with poor managers don't do this well. The players don't get themselves ready to play daily, the players play for their own stats instead of the team, the players don't go all out and concentrate all the time. If a manager gets his team to have the proper attitude throughout 162 games, they will win 15-20 more games than they would with the same talent if they didnt have a good approach. Cox has always added that many wins to whatever team he is manager of, especially this year.
However, in the playoffs, vitually all the players are ready to play, they are all trying to win rather than pad their stats, they all are hustling and playing with passion; so the managers effect is lessened. So, the playoffs are more about the talent of the players to make plays in the big games.
So, yes, because of this, I am saying that the worth and value of a good manager is alot more prevelant in the regular season and a lot less important in the playoffs.
You dont think in any way it had anything to do with the fact he had all those good pitchers? It was Bobby Cox's approach that made us win more games? If it was Jimmy Williams coaching the team you think we would of won less games?
I will take your word on it about Turners team way back when not being good. I dont dislike Bobby Cox at all. In fact, i actually kind of like him. Im just arguing that he doesnt deserve all of the accolades and not take any of the blame. And rightfully so the players do deserve some of the blame as well.
A good coach in football might win you 2-3 more games a year. A good coach in basketball could be a MAJOR influence on the way the team prepares and plays. I just dont see it in baseball. Why is it the yankees and braves won so many games in the 90's? Its because they had the best players. And as we have lost the pitchers and the money to get more in, we have gone downhill. The drop off shouldnt have been so drastic if Bobby Cox was influencing the team. The Phillies now have all the good players and they are winning. Is it bc of Jerry Manuel? No. They have Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins, Victorino, Jason Werth, Halladay, Hamels and Oswalt. Thats a team built like the braves were. I bet if the Phillies go on a run like the Braves do but dont win another WS they would fire Manuel. I would bet my life on that. Philly fans would not stand for what we here in Atlanta do. They BOO Santa Claus in Philly.
Boy, convincing you sure is a lot of work, but I havent given up yet!
While a baseball manager's effect isn't as easy to quantify as the the effect of a great football or basketball coach, it is WRONG to say that the manager means very little in baseball---and that the team with THE best players always wins. All you have to do to see that this is true is to study the career as a manager of Billy Martin.(Sorry to always go back to old school examples, but this is my golden era of baseball)
I will summarize Martin's managerial career for you. Martin was first hired by the Twins in 1967. The Twins were mediocre and had never won the pennant. Immediately, Martin took the Twins to the World Series. Martin was a psycho and fought with the Twins owners and got fired (he did this in every job). Next, Martin took over the Tigers in the early 70's. The Tigers were mediocre and getting worse the two years before, but in Martin's first year, they won the division. He then fought with owners and got fired. He then took over the Texas Rangers who had finished LAST in every season in their history. Immediately, he took them to second place, only a couple of games from winning the division. Martin fought with the owners in Texas and got fired. Martin was then hired by the Yankees for 1976, the Yanks hadn't made the playoffs in 12 years, and Martin, in his first two years, got the Yankees to the World Series both years and won it. He then fought with Steinbrenner and got fired. Finally, in 1980, Martin was hired by the A's. The A's were 54-108 the year before and the laughingstock of baseball and regularly got less than 1000 in attendence at their games. The first year with Martin, the A's finished in 2nd place and the next year, 1981, they won the division.
Clearly, looking at Martin's career, although he was a sick, demented, drunkard, he shows the effect a good manager can have. There is no way that was all a coincidence. Granted, great managers like Martin and Cox (and my man Dallas Green) are very rare.
Now, are Phillies good because of Charlie Manuel? No. I suspect Manuel is a very average manager with the best players (like Joe Torre). However, if Cox was the Phillies manager, the Phillies would have won the division by 20 games and would have been in first place all year, like the Braves were through the mid to late 90's every year.
If Manuel managed the Braves, they would have finished 75-87 this year. No knock on Manuel, but any average manager would have had that record with the anemic team Atlanta had this year. Cox getting the Braves to the playoffs this year might be his most impressive achievement of his very impressive career.
Thank You.
One more thing. Remember your junior year in basketball. We werent very good and Mays High was great. However, we approached the regular-season games seriously that year and Mays didnt approach the regular season very seriously and we beat them both times during the regular season. In the playoffs, we played them again. This time, they were prepared and serious and kicked the crap out of us. Talent won out in the playoffs. Then Mays went on and made it to the 4A state championship game.
In the post season, everybody is focused and tries their best, so in the playoffs, they won easily.
I think we were better coached than them (my opinion, of course) and during the regular season, we could beat them. But in the playoffs, their talent was going to win out.
(Of course, you may say it was my fault that we were losing 18-3 going into the 4th period---I understand that.
I cannot dispute the Martin stats. That is very impressive and is 100% not a coincidence. I did not know that he did all that. I do see your point but I still believe that almost any decent manager could have led the Braves with all of that pitching and hitting we had. There has not been another team in Baseball history that had the pitching prowess we had for over a decade. But you have successfully swayed me some on the effect of a good manager. I am not saying bobby isnt a good manager, he clearly is. Im just saying he doesnt get enough of the blame IMO.
I do remember the Mays game but I dont agree. They pressed us the 2 times we played them in the regular season and we gashed them. We beat the press and got layup after layup after layup. In the playoffs once they got the lead, they held the ball at midcourt for literally the entire quarter, knowing we could not pressure them as the PG would get to the glass and dish it to the twin 6'11 guys. Once we started pressuring them since we were down they got easy buckets. I think it was 8-3 at halftime or something like that. Gil hit the first shot of the game to make it 3-0 and we missed our next 18 i think. That was a tough one but they had some real talent on the team. We were def. better coached! If you looked on paper at the two teams we should have lost all 3 games by 25+. It was that way for almost every team we played and we were very competitive in almost every game. IMO we were unlucky in the region we played in. Loaded with good teams
Lou: I attended many games you coached that were close losses or wins that I walked away saying how did that happen. When I talk to people about the Lou Lefevre era, I say "although he was a sick, demented, drunkard, he shows the effect a good manager can have."
Hey, that's not fair to say that I am a sick, demented drunkard!!
Sick and demented...OK,.. but I don't drink that much.
coach- do you still do the rhino stuff? Do you use the 03 golden lions videos to teach how to ball fake?
OK, fair enough. Not a drunkard.
I've used your teams highlights to show to my teams here often---even my best teams. I must say, your senior year team was a much better team than I ever gave you credit for. You guys did a lot of things well. But, to my defense, I was under a lot of stress that year as I was being harassed by your pal Dick Kelly.
We are still doing the rhino contest. We are doing it right now. Two mile run with 10lb plates is tommorrow. I hope you still have your rhino shirt from the contest----I don't remember who won it your senior year, but I am guessing it was you.
Nice! I liked the roman wrestling. I remember Paul Schaaf calling me out so you matched him up with me first round and I ruined his life. I actually got 2nd or 3rd. I cant remeber but I think Gil won. I had to finish top 2 in the Stone Mtn. run which I did not. Spencer won that and won it easily if i remember correctly. The tug of war was fun also. Yeah we were pretty good i always thought just kind of got unlucky in a way with the region we played in...we had to play Dunwoody in the first round of the region tournament bc somehow they were the 4th seed when they were clearly the best team. Good times. Whats your preseason rank? I saw your link but it wont open for me at work.
Nope your wrong Chris... I won the Stone Mountain run!!! That was the only thing I was good at hahaha
my bad! I remember being very impressed with that...the stone mtn run is by far the hardest thing physically i have ever done...that last climb of around 100 yards is death....walking back down is also bad since your legs are jello
Yeah I still remember Ben Czarniak starting out in first but finishing last and telling Coach that his strategy was to start fast and hope that his mass and accelleration would keep him at that pace. Something he said Coach taught him in physical science! It was hilarious!
Yeah, Chris, I remember Schaaf talking shit about how he was going to hurt you. He was pretty convincing in his talk, and I was worried you might get embarrassed by getting beat by a sophomore. As I remember it, (As the old saying goes) the match consisted of 2 noises: 1)The sound of you hitting him 2) The sound of him hitting the mat.... three times in about 30 seconds. Haha! Then you pinned Szabo and I cheated you out of your win. Sorry.
HAHAHAHA that Czarniak quote is an all timer...Yeah Schaff didnt know what hit him. Come strong or dont come at all and unfortunately he didnt come at all.
Yeah i remember that. Szabo was not expecting me to be able to toss him around since he outweighed me by almost 30 pounds. I had him so clearly pinned. But its all good. I should have been able to do it again so its my fault i didnt win.
Then Gil just destroyed me bc he laid on top of me and I couldnt move. Those Rhino contest's were awesome. Slob Ball was my favorite. What a great game.
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